New Delhi

Awaz-the Voice had the privilege of being granted an exclusive interwith with the visiting Saudi Islamic scholar Dr. Mohammad bin Abdulkarim al Issa. Atir Khan, editor-in-Chief and Tehmeena Rizvi spoke with Dr Al-Issa, the secretary general of the World Muslim League and moderate face of global Islam, in New Delhi. Excerpts:

Atir Khan: Assalamo Alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu,Your Excellency! At the outset we thank you for giving us an opportunity to interact with you your Excellency.

Your Excellency, this is your first visit to India. You have met people from diverse sections of our society.  You are already in news headlines across the length and breadth of the country, from Kashmir to Kanyakuamri. Your statements have won hearts of hundreds of millions of Indians. What are your impressions about the diversity of our country?

Dr. M. bin Abdulkarim al Issa: Of course, I am very happy to visit the friendly Republic of India. I had a prior impression of India, that India there is a great diversity in the Republic of India. And when I came to the Republic of India, I found this diversity, openness, and dialogue with everyone. I met with political and religious leaders, as well as intellectuals and thinkers in the Republic of India. The impression, in fact, confirms what I previously had regarding the beauty of this diversity. In fact, I had a multi-faceted dialogue with diverse people during this visit, and thankfully, it was a successful dialogue. I also came knowing that India has important constitutional institutions. The provisions of the Indian constitution are inclusive and govern everyone with their diversity.

This constitution is considered comprehensive, and therefore, its implementation on everyone must secure the rights of all. I met with the Prime Minister, and it was an important and good dialogue as well. This dialogue was successful and open, and I was very happy with it. I also met with the President. It was also an open and wonderful dialogue. I also met with ministers, and I was very happy with these meetings. I met with Hindu religious leaders, and the meetings were like meeting friends, especially because I know some of them, and I have strong and solid ties with some of them, including prominent figures in Hindu religious leadership. They are close friends, and I was happy with these meetings and the renewal of these dialogues with Hindu leaders. There were also meetings with Islamic leaders.

Dr Al-Issa speaking to Arit Khan and Tehmeena Rizvi

These meetings were also important meetings. I was happy to deliver two lectures that were attended by religious leaders representing the diverse religious groups in India. I was also happy that there was a positive impression among everyone about that dialogue and those intellectual and coexistence ideas. Yes, India has this diversity, and the Indian constitution ensures a dignified and positive living for this diversity. I met with Islamic leaders who are proud of their homeland, India, and they sacrifice for India. They are also very happy with their friendship with the people of their country from all different faiths.

Tehmeena Rizvi: Excellency, India has strong historical and civilizational relations with Saudi Arabia. Prime Minister Shri Narendra Modi has also paved the way for a comprehensive strategic partnership with the Arab world. Also, India’s G20 presidency brings in another opportunity to strengthen our ties in the New World Order. So, what are your views on our growing partnership?

Dr. M. bin Abdulkarim al Issa: Of course, I will speak as a Saudi here, and I am proud to be a Saudi, and I will talk about my impression about this relationship. Of course, this relationship is very important, and this relationship is historical. Achieving common interests between the two countries and a great understanding between the two to realize our common goals. As Saudis, we are very happy with the development of the relationship between the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and the Republic of India to this very wonderful development.

Atir Khan: Your Excellency, there almost 2.7 million Indians of all faiths and regions and who are residing in Saudi Arabia, and they form a vital cultural and economic links between the two countries. What scope of Indian Diaspora do you see in strengthening our bonds?

Dr. M. bin Abdulkarim al Issa: In answer to this question, of course I am speaking as a Saudi citizen, of course the Indian community is a distinguished community in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, and on the basis of my relationship with a number of members of this community, I can say that it is a civilized community, and I can also say that it is a distinguished workforce. The Indian community enjoys the trust of the Saudi people. They trust the work of this community. The community relied upon in professional work, as well as in scientific aspects, relied upon for its skill and also for its devotion to its profession There is no doubt that Indian community forms the pillars of strong relationship between the two countries.

Tehmeena Rizvi: Excellency, Saudi Arabia has spearheaded many progressive reforms for women empowerment. Also, holy Quran given women equal status with men. Tell us more about your work in the Muslim World League towards women empowerment in the Muslim world.

Dr. M. bin Abdulkarim al issa: Of course, we as Saudis are working to empower women. There are systems in place in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia that have strengthened this role, and there is also realistic work, that is, on the ground, to empower women as workers who have full rights in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Women in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia are also distinguished from many other countries of the world, including developed countries, regarded civilized countries in the world rankings Women in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia are distinguished in that women enjoy fair equality with men in salaries, that is, there can be no disparity in the salary of a woman from that of a man because she is a woman, never, there is fair equality in these salaries, and also there is fair equality in the other matters. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia proceeds in this from the standpoint of Islamic law, which has been fair to women and has given them all their rights. We as Saudis are very reassured of the fair and comprehensive context of rights in this regard, especially in women's rights.

The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is governed by a legal treatise that stems from its constitution, which is the Holy Qur’an and the purified Sunnah of the Prophet, and there is a basic system for clear, just and comprehensive governance stemming from the systems of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Also, Saudi women have a full and honorable presence in all sectors of the state, and they work as citizens with all sincerity and professionalism, and whoever visits the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is closely acquainted with these matters. This just and legitimate empowerment of women in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia stems from the correct understanding of the Holy Qur’an and the Sunnah of the Prophet.

Atir Khan: Your Excellency, you have talked about openness of Islam that makes Ijtihad possible. As a jurist what scope of ijtihad do you see by using modern intellectual methods to get clarity on some of the most critical issues of our times such as role of Muslims in living in diverse societies, rights of Muslim women, organ donation, and interest-based banking. According to you what role should religious leaders and ulema be playing in contemporary times?

Dr. M. bin Abdulkarim al Issa: Islamic law brought justice, peace, and harmony among all. The subject of beliefs and the subject of these convictions is a private matter. Islamic law emphasizes the principle of being convinced of what you believe in, and for this there is a rule in Islamic law, stipulated in the Holy Qur’an which stipulates that: There is no compulsion in religion. We proceed from this rule that gave this freedom to the fact that Islamic law came with a great and broad horizon. When we talk about the word peace and harmony, we talk about stability in the world, and for this we always say that every Muslim living in the land must respect its constitution, respect its laws, respect its general culture, and respect the choice of its people, which is the choice of the majority, then the world will live in peace, and Islam has brought peace.

This is the correct concept of the religion of Islam, the concept of coexistence, the concept of respecting the other, the concept of respecting the existence of the other, no matter how much you differ with him in belief, no matter how you differ with him in thought, whatever the type of this difference is, you must respect the other, but within the framework of dialogue, and within the framework of love, within the framework of joint cooperation.

National states around the world are mostly very diverse, and this diversity we say to everyone should not turn into a clash and conflict, but rather it should contribute to richness and diversity of that country, and therefore there is a national brotherhood, the honest citizen who feels his national brotherhood.  For such a citizen, no matter how he disagrees with other, there is a constitution that governs everyone, and everyone coexists with this constitution. Disagreements are possible, but they do not turn into clashes and conflict. Islam is against it because it is for peace and harmony. Yes.

The world differs, but it cooperates, it differs in many matters, but it understands, dialogues, differs, but coexists, differs, but tolerates. With regard to the second part of the question, which is the subject of organ donation, one of the five principles that are considered among the five necessities mentioned by Muslim jurists is to save life, and from saving life is that you seek as much as possible to save the lives of others, and that includes donating organs to others, of course according to certain rules, you donate organs regardless of the difference of religion, race, or country, donating organs to the same person because man is the brother of man and is keen to save his life.

Tehmeena Rizvi: Excellency, your work as secretary General of World Muslim League, has won accolades for endorsement of moderate values, yet we see sometimes irritants between communities, like illegal conversions against the law of the land, cow slaughter etc. which creates conflicts within the multi-ethnic societies. What is the role of Muslim youth particularly to handle these issues?

Dr. M. bin Abdulkarim al Issa: I mentioned a while ago that Islam respects faiths, no matter how different they may be, but it respects the freedom of faith, and this faith remains your private thing. This  respect is based on not offending others, and not creating a problem with this faith that would cause a harmful impact in societies, because Islam looks from all Angles, Islam’s view is comprehensive and it doesn’t look from one angle, and also when you asked about the issue of the second part of the question, we always affirm in international platforms that laws and general culture must be respected in every country because this maintains security and stability, and preserves national harmony. It should not be from one angle, rather we should look from many angles.  Islam calls for peace and harmony, and nothing else, whatever the jurisprudence and whatever the pretexts, a Muslim would have a certain conviction in a certain jurisprudence, but this conviction may respond to many sub-issues from the branches that are not considered foundational.  Then he looks at something else, this thing is greater than this conviction, and this thing achieves peace and harmony, so he must adhere to this larger matter. As for the foundations, the Muslim’s belief that makes him a Muslim or a non-Muslim, there is no constitution in the world that deals with it, all constitutions In the world in all civilized countries, religious fatihs are respected as a Muslim or non-Muslim, and also the religious constants for him, there is no Muslim around the world who is told not to pray, do not say I am a Muslim, all the constitutions in the world protect this freedom, and therefore I am talking about other matters that are marginal or peripheral, but the Muslim believes that his behavior in these marginal issues may collide with issues larger than them and more important than them in maintaining security, stability and national harmony in the country in which he lives. So he must look at this larger matter and apply it, here is the universality of Islam here is the broad and comprehensive horizon of Islam, Islam. It does not look, as I said, from a narrow angle, or from one angle, but rather it looks comprehensively, and here when we talk about this matter, we achieve the goal of Islam, which is to achieve peace in this world.

Respect old morals that existed before Islam, because they are values respected by the Prophet, may God’s prayers and peace be upon him. Prophet Mohammad said: I have been sent to complete the noble character. Islam brought new values but those where were human values that address human instinct, emotional conviction, and special judgments that differ from these Islamic values and this comprehensive global horizon of Islam. It represents personal convictions and jurisprudence, and that is why we always say that general issues must be decreed upon by qualified scholarly councils with an institutional base and not individuals. For a Muslim, something may be permissible, but when it is practiced in a specific place, it may cause a very big problem, then it turns from permissible to forbidden. For the sake of this problem that you get from this permissible. For this reason, Muslim jurists agreed that legal rulings differ according to time, place, conditions, customs, intentions, and people, and when they said that they proceeded from the fact that Islam is a broad-minded religion, a religion that came to achieve interests of people.

Atir Khan: Excellency, we live in technological age where we talk about artificial intelligence, robotics. Today, no Muslim child can be denied the benefits of modern education which is required for rational thinking, scientific inquiry, and livelihood. Do you think Your Excellency to incorporate modern education into the curriculum of Darul ulooms and madrasas?

Dr. M. bin Abdulkarim al Issa: Everything that benefits children, and benefits future generations, should be included in schools, whether artificial intelligence or critical thinking, or any of the modern sciences. This thinking starts from childhood, and therefore we must make sure that the curricula stimulate sound thinking and give the child immunity against any penetration of his mind by bad ideas in the future.

Tehmina Rizvi: Your excellency, you have said time and again that Muslims need to respect their national laws and values and that the concept of political Islam is against the spirit of our faith. Yet, the organizations like ISIS harbour the fantasy of caliphate and such extremist worldview creates a situation of clash of civilizations. How has Saudi Arabia responded to this challenge so far and what should be the role of Muslim organizations to undermine such ideologies. Also please brief us more about the Makkah Charter.

Dr. M. bin Abdulkarim al Issa: The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has the largest intellectual platforms to confront extremist and terrorist ideas. The Kingdom is working hard in this regard. Kingdom has all the capabilities to confront these extremist and terrorist ideas, and it is working on that, and is still working on that. When we talk about those terrorists such as ISIS and Al-Qaeda, they do not represent Islam at all, otherwise, every terrorist in every religion would represent that religion, and this is not true, and this is why ISIS and al-Qaeda affected Islamic countries more than other countries, and we as Muslims have been hurt and affected more by them because those who do not know the truth of Islam have distorted the image of Islam, so we are doubly affected by the ideas of Extremists and terrorists.

The Makka Charter is a historical document, emanating from the Al-Madinah Al-Munawwarah Charter that the Prophet, may God’s prayers and peace be upon him, signed with all the religious groups in the city at that time. The Al-Madinah Al-Munawwarah Charter established the principle of coexistence among all: coexistence with dignity. In it, the Islamic world, especially Muslim scholars, gathered in Makkah in the year 2016 wherein more than one thousand and two muftis and scholars, from around the Islamic world who have the description of the official mufti, came to Makkah Al-Mukarramah, and also the great scholars from the Islamic world attended, more than a thousand Two hundred muftis and scholars, a very large number of its kind in Islamic history, agreed to issue the Makkah Charter. 

The charter clarified the reality of the Islamic religion and it was translated into several languages. Also, this document targeted all extremist and terrorist ideas. The document also focused on the necessity of a Muslim understanding the nature of difference and diversity in this life. The document also focused on the necessity of rejecting theories of conflict and civilizational clash and replacing them with dialogue, understanding and alliance based on commonalities between civilizations. These commonalities can make a significant contribution to establishing harmony in national societies and establish peace in our world.

Atir Khan: Excellency, could you now tell us a little more about the initiatives of Muslim World League in collaborating with UN for bridging the gap between Muslim and the western world.

Dr. M. bin Abdulkarim al Issa: This initiative is very important, and we realized in the context of global events, whether current or before, that there are events that some can understand as the civilizational clash between East and West, and mean the inevitability of this conflict according to theories that talked about the inevitability of clash and conflict between civilizations, such as Samuel Huntington’s theory in his book The Clash of Civilizations And this is a very dangerous matter, dangerous to the peace and harmony of nations and peoples. Through this initiative, we wanted, with our allies from all followers of religions, including followers of the Hindu religion, who were also partners with us in this initiative. We wanted to present to the United Nations, and through our allies of intellectuals, academics And also several politicians and parliamentarians around the world to present from within the United Nations this initiative and this initiative to build bridges between East and West. This is a strong message against the concepts of clash and conflict between civilizations. In general, there was a speech delivered by the United Nations representing its General Secretariat, and there was also a president of the United Nations General Assembly who attended and delivered a speech, and also the president of the Alliance of Civilizations in the United Nations attended and delivered a speech, and also there were speeches by a number of followers of religions and a number of thinkers, intellectuals and academics, I attended Prestigious international universities spoke at this symposium, which everyone was pleased with. They laid the foundation stone for this topic, and everyone agreed that we should launch initiatives and programs around the world that affirm that nations are allied and that there is no conflict or clash between civilizations.

Civilizations are different, but they are allied around their commonalities. Initiative we call for the promotion of peace in our world and for correcting ideas about the inevitability of clash and civilizational conflict, or for some contexts to interpret some global events as a conflict between East and West. And to friendship between nations and peoples. Attending this symposium, which carries the global initiative, is diversity that has not been attended before. Rather, there are major religious personalities who have not attended religious conferences for many years, but they attended this symposium due to the importance of this symposium. Rather, there are important international personalities who came from afar to attend this symposium within the United Nations, and I met with the Secretary-General To the United Nations after this symposium and emphasized its importance, as an example, the son of Mart Luther King came from a distant state for this symposium and said, “This is my father’s project for which he was present.

Atir Khan: Your Excellency, in one of your talks in New Delhi, you talked about your interaction with two greats spiritual leaders of India Sadguru and Shri Shri Ravi Shankar Ji. Could you share some of the experiences you had with them?

Dr. M. bin Abdulkarim al Issa: It is a friendship that expresses common feelings between me and these two dear friends, and we have common concepts to achieve the peace of our world and the harmony of our national societies. The world, I am convinced that these two friends carry a high spirit towards the love of everyone, the love of peace for this world. We respect each of them with special respect as an appreciation of friendship, and I communicate with them for more work together.

Atir Khan: Your Excellency, In your talks you have spoken to Indian wisdom, perhaps you were referring to Vedic wisdom which has been transmitted from generations to the present day. Would you like to talk a little more about them?

Dr. M. bin Abdulkarim al Issa: We, as Muslims, have a principle that a Muslim searches for wisdom wherever it is, and with whomever this wisdom is, we found a number of concepts and theories around the world, wisdom, and there is a special wisdom, which I called in the two lectures Indian wisdom related to dealing with matters and dealing with others with wisdom, this Indian wisdom began to crystallize and unite And you take the institutional context through the Indian constitution, the Indian constitution is an incubator for everyone and a guarantor of the rights of all, and through this constitution came the Indian laws and also the Indian culture was formed in its national framework that stems from this constitution that noticed the need of the Indian nation in its comprehensive diversity. This wisdom puts things in their rightful place. Matters are dealt with properly. We found this in the Indian constitution. We found this in the scene that we met through several diverse personalities in India. I also found this in the friends of those I met, and also, I cherish their friendship from all the Indian diversity. Hindu religious like our friend Shri Shri and also Sadguru and other Indian leaders with whom I maintain a good friendship and I also cherish this friendship because it is a very wonderful friendship that revolves around principles that we all believe in for the sake of this world for the sake of a unity that we agree on, which is the peace of this world and the harmony of national communities from In order to strengthen friendship and cooperation between nations and peoples for the sake of what I talked about a little while ago in your question, which is the initiative launched by the Muslim World League, which is the initiative to build bridges between East and West. Only wise and wise people who bear in their titles love and goodness for all gather around these principles that we share for the good of our world. We know about Indian wisdom when we are young, and we read this Indian wisdom in the books of philosophers. Indian wisdom is universal, not just local.

Atir Khan: Your vision and your smiling face have won millions of hearts and goodwill across all religions. Would you like to say a few words about the warmth and affection Indian people have extended to you?

Dr. M. bin Abdulkarim al Issa: Of course, I am very happy with my visit to the Republic of India, and India is a friendly country and also a country that contains a very wonderful diversity, and we felt that there was an understanding between this diversity and we were also pleased to discuss and engage in intellectual dialogues, and these dialogues enhance joint action in order to achieve our common goals, which I often remember that they have taken wonderful steps Very much around our world, but we have more and also challenges around the world, we have partners in India, partners whose partnership we cherish and they attend our conferences around the world we also attend their conferences, and there are also conferences held by Hindu religious leaders and cultural and intellectual leaders from the Republic of India of all Indian diversity and we attend these conferences We interact with these conferences in order to achieve our common goals. I am very happy to visit India, and happy with my various meetings in the Republic of India, which are very successful and wonderful meetings, and we consider this visit in the special record that I cherish in all my visits around the world.

Atir Khan: Your Excellency, this has been a truly enlightening interaction. You have spoken about some many important concepts. We are sure that this will go a long way in building and promoting strong relations between India and Saudi Arabia. We again thank you for taking the time for this interaction.

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Dr. M. bin Abdulkarim al Issa: I am very happy with this meeting, and I am also happy that we will continue to communicate, cooperate, and exchange with our friends in the Republic of India to achieve our common goals, which we worked on during this visit, and we also worked on them in previous conferences and initiatives, and we will work on them in the future, God willing.

Atir Khan: Thank you.

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